Isn't it ironic...
That gays and lesbians (regardless of what you think of that lifestyle) are fighting for the chance to marry, and now, when they can in some states, they flock to do so, and talk about how different it feels to be married rather than living together...
And heterosexuals (regardless of what you think about that lifestyle) have the right and freedom to marry but increasingly opt not to and instead live together outside of marriage because marriage is "nothing more than a piece of paper?"
Hmmm.....
About Me
- Pastor Tim
- I grew up in St. Louis Park, MN. I've been living in Arizona since 1984. I root for the AZ Cardinals, The Vikings and the Adelaide Crows (Australian Rules Football). I married my high school sweetheart, Jan, in 1979. We have a Beagle, Santi, and a Dachshund, Saba, and two real children that we love almost as much--Alycia married to Corey, who have a son, Judah, and Mike, married to Amber, who have a daughter, Clover, and a son, Phoenix. I am Sr. Pastor of Community of Grace Lutheran Church in Peoria, AZ. I am also the author of a new book on boys--Searching for Tom Sawyer: How Parents and Congregations Can Stop the Exodus of Boys from Church (www.TimWrightMinistries.org)
5 comments:
Somehow I'm failing to see irony here...
I won't play any games about what I feel about gay or heterosexual lifestyles. I think that all people have a right to love who they love. I believe all beings are to be considered equally, regardless of skin color, sex, sexual preference, height, age, etc.
I feel like this post shows an abnormal (for yourself) lack of development or thought on why people may feel these feelings. I think further development is necessary.
Only recently, and only in one state in the U.S. and a few countries around the world are homosexuals being considered legally equal to heterosexuals. Barring one group from the same "privileges" (also sometimes called rights or opportunities) is certainly a form of discrimination.
Homosexuals are fighting for the chance to marry because it is an equal rights issue. Some homosexuals may be interested in marrying, others maybe not, however, I personally do not know any who do not believe that marriage should be an option that ANYONE should be able to choose.
Heterosexual marriage is nothing new or exciting to heterosexual people. We have been brought up with the expectations of marriage, as society imposes. Heterosexuals have been marrying for thousands of years. There is no novelty involved, no political statement being made, nothing particularly exciting or new about heterosexual marriage. Considering the extremely high divorce rates, the disparaging jokes made about marriage in sitcoms and movies, and through observation of our own and many of our friends' parents, it is obvious that marriage may not be the pleasure giving bond that one might idealize it to be.
Thus, the idea of living together without marriage, open relationships, alternative types of relationships, living together before marriage etc, etc, etc... anything different may be a more interesting or exciting idea (if not always necessarily a better idea). Marriage may not even necessarily be an idea that some heterosexuals see as a desirable bond at this point, after thousands of years of it being an opportunity.
HOWEVER,
Consider the alternative. Consider the people who may have realized and accepted/embraced that they were gay 60 years ago! Or 20. Or 5. Or just 6 months ago... They have had to deal with (for varying lengths of time) knowing they are in fact not treated as equals to heterosexuals. Marriage is obviously not the only issue. Hate crimes are rampant, hate speech even worse. Being not all that far removed from high school and my undergraduate experience, the amount of times I have heard things negatively described as "gay" or the number of times I have heard any guy showing any display of emotion, sensitivity, "femininity" (including myself) called a "fag", or hearing males speculating that a girl who might not reciprocate their feelings of affection must be a "dyke"... this is normal and accepted speech in many circles. Imagine how hurtful that speech can be to homosexuals... These words are certainly no different or less hurtful than words used to put down other races in the past that are now fully condemned by most decent people.
Imagine that you are gay and you have to live in this culture, where it is a common put down to be gay. Where it is a massive political issue when gay people want to have equal opportunities as straight people. Where you hear Christian "leaders" such as Jerry Falwell saying that Hurrican Katrina happened because gays were planning a PRIDE parade... i could go on about examples of the demonization of homosexuals... I'm sure anyone not living under a rock can see how many people demonize homosexuals for discriminatory, religious, and political reasons.
Can you now see why gays and lesbians might be interested in fighting for (and being excited about!) the "chance to marry"? Maybe the chance to marry is an important struggle they have been dealing with for years, a struggle to have equal rights with heterosexual couples. A struggle to not be seen as condemnable, disgusting, perverted... but to be seen as normal and acceptable. Maybe initially it feels very different to be married rather than living together. Personally, I think the excitement is more over gaining ground in the fight to be considered equal, less about a major difference in being married or domestic partners. This is an equal rights victory worth being in a celebratory state about.
I would consider this a similar victory to women's suffrage, abolishing "separate but equal" as related to skin color, and other important human rights victories. In my discussions with others, both homo- and heterosexual, I have come to the conclusion that the excitement is about the gaining of greater equality and acceptance, both legally and hopefully socially.
Heterosexuals have a history of "normality", acceptance, equal rights, marriage, etc. Homosexuals obviously do not. Therefore, things that are old news (and possibly passé) for heterosexuals are groundbreaking reasons for excitement and participation amongst homosexuals. I would speculate that after thousands (or maybe just hundreds or tens) of years after homosexual marriage is an acceptable and normal thing, it will no longer hold the exciting prospects that it now has. However, it is all relative to the rights that one is used to having. There are obvious and important reasons why marriage is such an exciting new prospect for homosexuals vs. the ever decreasing interest to heterosexual couples.
I think that this is one of the most important issues of our time and something that should be passed off with just a comment like, "isn't this ironic?" These are issues that must be analyzed and discussed, and I'd be very interested to know more about your views on the subject.
David.
My point wasn't to comment on Gays or Gay marriage. My point was, essentially, to say what you are saying in a part of your response. Heterosexuals tend to take marriage for granted. And we allow the stuff you talked about to get in the way of a very special gift. For example, living in a free country comes with all sorts of challenges and it's easy to complain about what we do or don't do as free people. But in the end, I'd rather live in a free country than in a dictatorship. Gays, on the other hand, who haven't had the chance to marry, see beyond the challenges to the gift that it is. And for me that's the irony. Those of us who are free to marry focus on why we shouldn't. Those who are not free to marry focus on why they should.
David,
Now that I have a bit more time to respond to the rest of your questions let me ramble a bit a share some of what I'm currently thinking.
Obviously the issue of homosexuality has been, right or wrong, understandably or not so understandably, a divisive issue not only in the US but in other parts of the world as well. Many people have immediate, visceral responses just in seeing or hearing the word, gay, whether they support the lifestyle or condemn it. So usually we can't have open discussions about it without devolving into a lot of yelling and even grandstanding.
To begin, I agree with you that the hate-filled statements made against gays by anyone, especially Christians, is unacceptable. If anyone ought to speak grace-fully, it should be Christians, even if we're speaking about and to those whom we consider to be living in sin. Jesus never spoke harshly to sinners. He always spoke to them out of grace and transforming forgiveness. On the other hand, he was pretty tough on the self-righteous. Wherever Christians are on this issue, we should be taking the lead in a grace-full discussion about it. Sadly, many of us are not.
Second, being raised in a fairly conservative Christian family I fully understand the struggle many Christians have trying to reconcile Scripture that suggests quite strongly that homosexuality was not a part of God's original design for his creation on the one hand and a strong desire to be grace-full in thinking through the issue on the other. Because Christians all too often end up yelling "homophobic" comments, it's hard to step back and recognize how difficult it is for many Christians to simply embrace homosexuality as easily as many in our culture do. For many Christians it is a moral issue. And just as we need to listen to gays and lesbians perhaps we also need to listen compassionately to Christians and their desire to be faithful to God and what God may be saying about homosexuality. Cramming homosexuality down the throats of Christians is just as inappropriate as Christians cramming Jesus down the throats of non-Christians. (And while some may find this offensive, just because culture embraces a certain lifestyle doesn't necessarily make it right. All of us have lines we will not cross and many Christians are wrestling with this particular line. They, too, should have the right to articulate what they believe God is saying--but again, to do so grace-fully.)
Personally, I'm one of those (and I think there are many of us) who just isn't sure what to think. I'm less certain about some things one day and then more certain about them the next. I fully embrace the Scriptures as God's word to us. I fully embrace Jesus as God's word to us. And I fully embrace the grace that Jesus demonstrates and to which the Bible testifies. I've met many deeply devoted followers of Jesus who are gay--loving, compassionate, passionate people. I've met many evangelical leaders who are passionate about Jesus and, while being heterosexual, affirm the gay lifestyle. I've also met some very loving, compassionate Christians who lovingly articulate their beliefs that the gay lifestyle is not God's best for us. The best I can do is to be loving and continue to listen to the Bible, to Jesus, to the church, to respected Christian leaders, to gays and lesbians, to try to sort out where I'll end up. I hope that always I am loving of gays, even though I'm not sure I can fully support their lifestyle.
Having said that, the argument that challenges me the most right now is the social justice or equal rights argument you bring up. I may not agree with the gay lifestyle but do I have the right to impose my morality in such a way that it robs others of their rights? On the other hand, every law is influenced by some kind of morality. So who's morality will set the agenda? Would I want the morality of someone who is anti-Christian, for example, to set policy in this country outlawing my right to worship Jesus publicly?
One final rambling thought--this is my impression which can be way off base. Your generation (and that includes my kids) see this issue far differently than my grandparents did. And even than my parents did. My generation is kind of in the middle. Hence the big debates in many mainline denominations over ordaining practicing homosexuals and the debate over gay marriage. We would never have had these debates 50 years ago. (Some will see this as a good thing. Others will see this as a bad thing.) Perhaps in 100 years this won't be an issue. Who knows?
So, there you have it for now. But back to my original post--again, the point was to simply say that those who can't get married see great value in it and are fighting for the right to marry. Those of us who can get married tend to take it for granted. It was my simple way to say to heterosexuals that we have a wonder-filled gift in marriage--a gift that perhaps many of us need to rediscover.
Wow - great discussion!
At the risk of jumping in way over my head, for those concerned about the rights of gays, I think a very helpful article was in the NYTimes last month: Thinking About California: Maybe Gonna Get Married By KIM SEVERSON. Should be easy to google. If you think, as I once did, that we can avoid the marriage question entirely and that legal partnerships are the answer, this one really breaks open the substantial differences between marriage and partnerships.
While I think it's entirely possible that one man and one woman is God's original plan for marriage, it certainly seems that we make an awful lot of accommodations, on many levels, to life lived outside of God's plan for creation. So why not this?
I'm not impressed by all the proof-texting that is used to attack homosexuality. The only relevant scripture that speaks to me is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, with all your strength. And the second is this: Love your neighbor as yourself." And for those times that I don't quite get it as well as I should, Jesus added that little kicker - "there is NO commandment greater than this". (none, nada, zilch)
I don't know how, in the name of God and love, I would want to take away any legal rights from two consenting adults who want to make a loving commitment to a lifetime together. The bottom line for me is to love my neighbor as myself. And that means that gays should have access to the same legal rights to live in their families as I have to live in mine.
I'm proud to live in AZ, the only state that refused to vote the so-called marriage amendment (aka - if you can't beat 'em, let's take away their health care - good grief). I shudder to think what mean-spirited talk is going to spew forth from church pulpits in the months to come as we respond to the recent judicial change in California.
They'll know we are Christians by our laws?
or
They'll know we are Christians by our love.
Grace and peace,
What an interesting post by everyone. My son is gay and he asked me if I felt that he was going to go to Hell for it?
I told him that God loves him exactlly as he is. I had always been taught that it says in the bible that man should lie beside woman, so I was always worried that he was committing a sin. I don't believe that anymore. Someday I hope that he does find someone to spend his life with. Would I feel comfortable if he got married? Honestly No. Maybe if they called it a legal partnership... I feel guilty that I feel that way, but I always felt that Marriage is between a man and woman...
I feel bad for my son. his road is not easy, but he has faith and with faith I think he will be ok.
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